Interview 01. — Marina

Zach —
Hello. Thank you for participating.

Marina —
Oh, thank you. Thank you for having me.

Zach —
Of course. Feel free to stop participating whenever you want. You're here at your own leisure, correct?

Marina —
Yes. Okay. Very casual guess.

Zach —
Yeah, this is fresh air. All right. So first question, does your experience as a African American person influence your work as an artist or designer? If so, how?

Marina —
Yes, I feel like, Well, I'm mixed if I'm allowed to say so. So growing up I grew up predominantly with my white family and then throughout high school I started being able to experience black culture more for what it is and feel more accepted within that. And then coming into college, just learning more and more about the sub — I'll say subculture — racist agendas. I don't know how I want to put that together, but like colorism and the fact that I'm lighter skin; that I'm still going to get more opportunities than those with darker skin than me, and that I want to be able to support that. But even then, it's still hard for me to be out, and constantly say, "Oh, I'm black," or even I'm African-American, it's just hard for me to bring my race to the forefront. So when I'm focusing on my art, especially, it would strange to see how my arts developed because when I was younger, I drew mostly white women.

Marina —
And as I've progressed into the artist that I am now I include so many different people of color within my work. Just being able to like, I don't know, growing up I felt like I wasn't accepting that part of me. And then as I moved along and becoming the artist that I am now, it's easier for me to find the beauty within my race and within other races and just bringing them more to the front; the forefront of artwork because we're important and we're unheard and needing to be seen. Yes. Yeah.

Zach —
All right. Yeah. So do you feel — you kind of addressed this a little bit. Do you feel that your identification as African-American or black is a barrier to your success as an artist? .

Marina —
Yes and no. I feel like it was a bit of a barrier, especially in college just because I was, I'm pretty sure the only person of color, at least in my grade level, in my major. So it almost felt like I had to be a step above everyone else with my work, even though I was, I was good. But it wasn't good enough almost. .

Marina —
No, in the fact that I feel like I am within a community that is very loving and very accepting of everyone and all of their backgrounds. And I feel like I have had a lot of opportunity because of that. But it is mainly within with others who are people of color, not just like white led events that are like, yes, let's bring black artists into this area. Let's bring Hispanic and Latino artists and Latino Latin artists. Very young. Yeah. Stuff like that.

Zach —
Do you feel as though you have peers that are readily able to empathize with you in the end of your experience as an African American artist designer? So that could be like friends that you know from outside of your undergraduate experience, like people that you've networked with, like regardless of race or you mentioned those kinds of communities that are African-American people of color, dominant; so taking all those into account.?

Marina —
Yeah, I do feel like I have that support, but in the same sense, all of our backgrounds are so different because we've all faced different forms of oppression that one person might be able to relate to more than another. But that doesn't negate the fact that we've all struggled and we're all able to support each other.

Marina —
I think that's all I have to say.

Zach —
Okay, So thinking back to your education experience in the arts — that can be high school, it could be undergrad or graduate school, whatever. Do you, did you feel like that you had faculty or staff that were readily able to empathize with your experience as a person of color? African-American?

Marina —
Not until college. And that was really hard throughout high school because I just felt like as much as I would express myself and share my feelings, it's still wasn't understood because all faculty that I looked up to or had a close bond with were white. And that's just because there weren't a lot of warn, a lot of teachers that were people of color that and happened to be hired. And it's just, it's interesting to think about how like, it's not something you noticed until you start thinking about it. It's weird. Coming into college I think only, I mean I have a lot of, I had a lot and still do, have a lot, a lot of wonderful professors, had mentors. But only one who is a black woman. And after meeting her I just started thinking about the world differently and thinking about my art differently. And like the passion behind her words. And it doesn't even just with like me, it's with any student who she can see is struggling. She's been through so much and she just has so much love and support to share and I especially came to her when I feel like I'm constantly having an identity crisis. But coming to her, she [inaudible] was able to offer a lot of kindness and love and support whenever I needed it. Yeah.

Zach —
I'm glad you had that experience. So this next one kind of touches on what you were saying about your high school experience and about your experience with your cohort. Do you feel like your contributions, your ideas, your labor or your like produced work, anything that you output and share with your immediate audience, like in the classroom or in like artists groups. Thinking of those white peers in those situations, do you think that those contributions are valued as equally as they would be to non-white peers?

Marina —
I feel like I kind of lucked out, at least with, well, I've had some experiences that have frustrated me a little bit because I wasn't even able to like stand up for myself in those situations because I didn't know yet. But I feel like most of all of my peers, especially in my nature were progressive enough to understand and to empathize at least if they, they didn't have that experience themselves. Well I guess not empathize, but for sure to sympathize with me. Yeah. I do feel like there was kind of not an expectation, but an undertone that I would produce something different or strange or which, I mean, part of me likes that part of me is also like why is there an expectation that I'm going to be outside the box but so-and-so isn't going to be outside of the box when so-and-so happens to be white. I am the only black person in our class, so why is that directed towards me? Which maybe that's just part of my personality. Maybe that doesn't have to do anything with my race, but it does feel like a stand out in a way that,

Zach —
Do you think exoticizing might be the right word?

Marina —
Exoticizing might be the right word.

Zach —
But not so, malicious?

Marina —
A little, subtly. Especially because probably a lot of people that I was in class with didn't have a lot of interaction with people of color with black people or with black art or history or any kind of influence like that. So curiosity I guess. Curiosity. We'll go with that to put it nicely. Yes.

Zach —
So polite. Do you feel proportionately represented among your peers, among those immediately around you? With those who you surround yourself with?

Marina —
I do. Fortunately, my friend group is very diverse and I think that's kind of funny. Um not funny, you know, I just, it makes me happy with how I've laid in, in my life. So of course growing up all my friends were very — not very — white, but all my friends were white. Not every single one of them. My best friends, not white, but I do feel like I am very likable with other community. I feel like I can make friends with almost anybody. And what's very fortunate is that the more I'm interacting with people, the more I am meeting more people like me. The more I'm meeting more people of color and the more that is able to just open my eyes up a little more to how the world is around me. cause it's, it's just so easy to shut that out, to not deal with it. I know that you have to, but there's only — it just, it gets exhausting.

Zach —
Yes.

Marina —
Yes.

Zach —
Double consciousness.

Marina —
To be able to do it with that support around me and just makes it a lot easier.

Zach —
Thinking about your white peers,

Marina —
I'll think about 'em!,

Zach —
Think about 'em! Do you feel like those that have like more than average levels of privilege than other white people do, are they advocates for you and your non-white peers?

Marina —
now? Yes. In college? Not really. I feel like now I'm just, when, when I hear that question now I just think about like my boss, he's very loving, very caring, very supportive. Listens to me, listens to my issues. Sympathizes extremely sympathizes with everybody I work with. But in college I feel like, I feel like college is barely even a step out of high school cause I mean, I, I didn't do the best shit. I didn't do the best shit in college. But I at least owned up to some of it. With those, there were just those who you could tell their family just came from money and the way they interacted with you, the questions they'd ask — you could tell that they were just, they were just ignorant. And. the more ignorant things they said — they didn't really get any better. And that's what's so frustrating because it's not my responsibility to call them out. And also, I don't want to be the person who's like, "Oh, the only black person in class is getting angry at me for doing X, Y, Z." I feel like there was an instance where I got angry. There was an instance that I showed that I was uncomfortable and it was belittled, by one of my classmates. And it's just so difficult because I'm so easy to forgive and forget and I'm so it just, yeah. Yeah. So it hasn't always been the case. The more loving and accepting I am of people now, easier it is for them to understand where I'm coming from. But yeah.

Zach —
Good.

Marina —
Yeah.

Zach —
I'm going to go off script a little bit.

Marina —
Let's do it!

Zach —
Last question. So you talk about owning up to maybe your work not being up to the level you expect of yourself or that like maybe a professor or others would expect of you. Do you think that you're like conscious of your blackness, conscious of you being an African-American? Do you think that that plays into you being self-critical of your work?

Zach —
So it's like, if you think that the work isn't living up to your expectations or other's expectations, how does that interplay with your identifying as black? Do you feel like since you identify as African-American, you are the only one in your cohort, that if the work was bad, it was just that much more bad?

Zach —
Feel free to, answer however, I'm not asking for an affirmative. I'm just asking what you think about that.

Marina —
Well not even having any label or description with myself. I am always, I am not as much I was before but extremely self-critical of my work. I feel like there was just always very high expectation. I don't know if it was because of my race specifically. I don't know if people just had it out for me, which I know is not the best way to think, but there was one professor that I just kind of was like, "there must be something that's an issue for you to feel the need to email my advisor about issues that I am personally coming to you about." But it's fine. Stuff like that has just subconsciously drilled its way into my mind and has brought that critic to the surface. Not so much anymore. So I'm doing a lot to work on making that better within myself and especially centering my identity around it. Cause I think it's a very beautiful part of me. I think it's a part that I, especially growing up, I didn't want to hide, but I just didn't understand who I was because I didn't have anybody like me around me.

Marina —
Um — I lost track of the question.

Zach —
Do you want me to repeat it?

Marina —
Yeah.

Zach —
So do you feel like your, what you perceive as a poor performance on your part, or like a less than up to par performance on your part, do you think that that and your blackness have a relationship at all to yourself or others?

Marina —
Right. I do. I think this is also just a subconscious feeling that there is an expectation of me to present above and beyond. I feel like I have to give X, Y, Z reasons when some other person can just give one reason and they're like approved or supportive. Again, may that just be like how I was raised or may it be connected with my race overall. It's just part of me all together. All of everything that's part of me is presented with my work, presented with my criticism. And I think that breaking down that criticism is parallel to me learning to love all of those parts of myself, especially with my race, which I've never, — I don't want to say I ever hated it — but definitely when I was much, much younger, I was just confused about because I just didn't know. There was no one around to help teach me or inform me. So, yeah. Yeah.

Zach —
All right. Is there anything else you want to add?

Marina —
Hmm. Okay. I don't think so.

Zach —
Well, thank you for your time.

Marina —
Thank you for your time !

Interview 02. — Zoieie

Zach —
Hello.

Zoieie —
Hi.

Zoieie —
How are you?

Zoieie —
I'm pretty good. How you doing?

Zach —
I'm good. I'm cold.

Zoieie —
Oh gosh. Yes.

Zach —
Yesss. So the first question is, does your experience as a black or African American person influence your work as an artist and designer? If so,

Zoieie —
I would say that yep. My identity and cultural heritage definitely does influence what I do in design. I would consider myself black but not African American. Because I, my mom is from Uganda, and I grew up in Uganda. People ask me where I'm from. My first answer is usually Uganda. And so it is interesting to, I consider myself biracial or multiracial and so to come here and because be perceived as black, unless there's an explanation or somebody that holds a similar identity to mine and can tell my heritage more from the get go. But so a part of that with people not knowing or with feeling like I need to express myself, that does come through in my design. I would say at least once a semester there is a project where I would like to incorporate it to kind of not only to inform the other people in my class — cause I don't think that's my responsibility. But more so to empower myself and through the exploration of a specific part of my culture or my identity or through conversations with people around me doing a piece on that part is a way for me to learn more about myself.

Zach —
Yeah. Nice. Nice. So you're like using how identify within yourself to also like better educate others even though it's, as you said, not your job. That's cool. Two birds with one stone.

Zoieie —
That's another question I was going to ask you actually you — black or African-American. Like what's the difference to you? How do you identify? So thanks for addressing that too.

Zach —
Do you feel like when you do like actively racially identify as black, that that becomes like a barrier or like an obstacle to your success as a graphic designer?

Zoieie —
I would say sometimes there's two parts that I think there's a personal barrier for myself in that my first response if it's available, would be two or more races or if you can select multiple options. And I would like multiple options. So there's a, there's a personal shift and discomfort. If I, for example, only selected black because that's not my sole identity. So I think there's an issue there. But I would say that based on the way that I look and my outward expression of myself, I think I am very noticeable, which can be a good or a bad thing. For the most part I've experienced it as a good thing. When I'll meet people in spaces, a lot of the times they'll say, "Oh, I've seen you around or you look so familar." So but a lot of times it's not reciprocated in that I'm very happy to meet them, but I haven't noticed them and I stick out cause of my hair color or the curls in my hair or my skin color. So I think that just being aware that I am more visible and which can also be used to my advantage if there is a career fair or if there is a networking opportunity knowing that I'm going to stick out. And so knowing what I'm going to say or knowing what, how my perspective will be different from other people's. . So there's definitely, two parts to it.

Zach —
Nice. So in your experience in undergrad, and I guess also if you participated in like art and design in high school as well, do you feel like you have peers hat are readily able to empathize with you? In terms of your blackness and your graphic designerness and the combination of the two.

Zoieie —
I actually just rememebered something I want to add to the other question, can I?

Zach —
Oh yeah, go ahead. So talking about how your identification plays into your work.

Zoieie —
The thing I wanted to add was about being Ugandan specifically or from a country in Africa is that if that comes up in the conversation, then it's a shift. It's no longer, "who are you as a designer, who are you as a person? 'It's, "who are you as a Ugandan?" "How do you talk so well?" "How did you get here?" So I just want to add that because that's the part that does really frustrate me is that I really value my identity. And sometimes it feels tokenized in that this is the first time somebody has met someone from that country, and so people asking me about the political history of my country instead of, for example, about how my identity can influence my design. So that is something where my identity specifically when I express where I am and who I am from is then removed from who I am as a designer, and it's not a graphic designer from Uganda, it's a Ugandan graphic designer. So that's what bothers me.

Zach —
Is that predominantly white peers, or is that all peers?

Zoieie —
It's predominantly white peers. Or professionals. I've, I think I've actually experienced it more in professional settings. If I'm networking, or if I am talking to a professor, that might be the thing that makes me quote unquote "more interesting."

Zach —
Yeah. Yeah, it's perceived like a marketable trait.

Zoieie —
So yeah, that's what I wanted to add.

Zach —
So you see it as like, once it comes up that you having Ugandan heritage, it becomes about you being a Ugandan person instead of you being a black designer or just graphic designer.

Zoieie —
Mhmm, exactly.

Zoieie —
So back to the other question. Do you feel like you have peers, your current peers are able to like readily engage and empathize with like your work when it does take on a black narrative?

Zoieie —
I think sometimes, it's always interesting related to I would say social justice topics in general. There is a shift in maybe the way, for example, it's critiqued in class. So if somebody was doing a topic on I dunno their kitchen utensils in their home, that's a wonderful project, but the way that a professor would approach it is very different than if they're approaching a project that is to do with race or identity or anything else, and they are intentionally being a lot more careful about what they're saying, which can be good and bad. I feel like if my project is about my identity as Ugandan but my typography is really bad, you should still feel okay calling me out on that typography, and so separating the topic of the project from the, from the, I don't know, the content and what I'm trying to talk about. Context? Content? That's what I'm trying to say.

Zoieie —
Okay, so separating the content from like the actual technical skill.

Zoieie —
Like the skill is involved at create that poster for example. So there's a balance where there, where it is important to be understanding, but the work is still work at the same time. I know people that have had different experiences where in a class, they might've presented something that was to do with one person talked about how people in their family — they're also a black woman — black men in their family, how the prison to school, to prison pipeline. In that topic, our professor did not have any background on it, so the suggestions that they were making to the person to improve or strengthen their project weren't informed. So that that professor had not taken the time to say, "okay, I hear your topic, I admit I don't know anything. Let me take some time to do some research. So that next class I can understand additional perspective to then strengthen your project or ask you questions so that I can understand it from your perspective. Now how can I help you based on, again, what I know about how to make a good project, not about that specific content that you're making it about." So there's that, there's a nervousness to address it, but there's also an unwillingness to learn more, to give informed advice.

Zoieie —
And some people, there are professors that do make that effort or have had enough lived experience to understand it, to understand and have a knowledgeable perspective about a lot of things, and who are also confident, or are more comfortable being wrong and making mistakes.

Zach —
Yeah, and I feel like there's issues outside of race where that comes up, but it's not as, i/sticky. I've felt that like nervousness, and like unwillingness maybe to adapt to complicated racialized content, but like I've also seen equally as complicated content but not like racially charged, but then they're like diving right in, and this is with the very same people as well. So yeah, that mechanic is, once race comes into it, it does then complicate an already complicated situation.

Zoieie —
Yeah, no, I think things like, even sometimes though people will talk about like drunk-driving or depression and things like that, and those are all really serious topics, but again, there is more confidence in how a professor might address it. Right, right.

Zach —
Yeah. Good observation. The next question is, do you feel like faculty and staff, same as the peers, but faculty and staff are readily able to empathize with you? So since you already talked about faculty, can you think about like maybe staff, or an advisor, mentor, deans, department chairs, whatever you may think?

Zoieie —
I would say, I don't think I necessarily have enough conversations with those people about topics like these for it to come up. I think that there's different dynamics in how you can create connections with those people in positions of power to be able to talk to them and get advice on your specific situation if that's academically, but also knowing that a lot of people such as department chairs or deans have knowledge inside design and so they would be, they could be impactful in informing that design, but on a personal level, I just haven't had enough interactions beyond the multicultural services. Beyond that, I haven't necessarily had those conversations about my design, and my personal expression of identity or other people's expression of identity when it comes to race. So, yeah, I don't know.

Zach —
So the multicultural services that are offered at your institution, they are readily able?

Zoieie —
I would say we have the great benefit of having a somebody in our multicultural services department who's willing to listen and willing to learn and is very humble about it too. So I think that's the biggest thing is that even if you don't relate, being willing to listen and makes a huge difference. So yeah,

Zoieie —
I will say, I think the other thing too is creating spaces, so the main reason why I haven't had conversations with deans, or advisors, or people like that about these kinds of topics is there wasn't a space for it. It can be argued that you could just walk into an office and confidently show your work, but when it comes to certain pieces of work, I don't think there is, if you don't have already have that connection, there's not a way to do that.

Zach —
Yeah, [sidebar] there's very invisible power dynamics at play, and you as a student should not feel compelled to cross or build that bridge — at a minimumyou should be met halfway on the bridge that was created for you.

Zach —
Do you feel like when you do contribute blackness to your art into your design into your work, that it can be appreciated in the way that you feel it should be by white peers, by white faculty?

Zoieie —
I would say that it can be, I think that again has to do that person's previous experience. And so if they might've seen somebody do work that addressed blackness or addressed race, I think that they're much more open to seeing it again and maybe learning more from it or learning something different from it. Or just hearing about somebody else's identity. So I would say that there, the capacity is there to understand and appreciate and learn from if that is the motive of the work.

Zoieie —
So I think the capacity's there. I don't know if the systems in place always encourage people of color, especially black people in this case, to do that with their work. Whether that's based on project examples, or descriptions. So I think the capacity is there, but the space may not be.

Zach —
Last question — How do you feel about the amount to which you are represented in your setting as a black graphic designer, black woman, et cetera. And you can define setting as you see fit.

Zoieie —
I would say that, underrepresented absolutely. Out of the people in the program I know one other person who, a black woman, it's my friend. I know there's actually, okay. No, there is more, there is maybe three or four, but one of them is a close friend. One of them, I know all of them in some way because of the size, because of the number of us. There is usually a few more couple more women of color from other races or other ethnicities. There's usually a few men of color, but actually men of color, even less so, so in general underrepresented and that under-representation definitely plays into everything we've talked about before. Whether that's do with seeing previous examples or professors being comfortable addressing it or peers being comfortable, and willing to engage with topics like these. Definitely if there, if there isn't representation who paved the way before you, but there also isn't enough representation coming behind you, then that space is never created and each person is responsible for creating that space, but that space is only temporary. It only exists while they're there and someone else has to do the work again. Yeah. So there's no continuation of making space or creating a dialogue.

Zach —
That's a very, very good point and it's a great place to end —if you're ready. Is there anything else you wanted to say contribute?

Zoieie —
I think there's also, even though it is to do with the institution, I think there's also something to be said for the surrounding community. So if there is an effort made to engage with the surrounding community, then to that cause to show work and only show it on a campus and only make an impact there does nothing for the other people of color, in this case, black people that might live around or be affected in the same way. So I think as graphic designers, our work is usually made to be presented, so there's also in some cases and inherit responsibility, or how are we empowering the people around us that look like us. They don't look like us. Whatever it is, whatever marginalized people fit into the dynamic of the work we created. How is our work than applicable to others? So thinking about, yeah, not just on campuses specifically, but also how is the surrounding community engaged to keep the people on campus there and make them feel welcomed and empowered.

Zach —
Sustainable spacemaking.

Zoieie —
Yes.

Zach —
Alright. An even better place to end. Thank you for your time.

Zoieie —
Yes, absolutely. Thank you for talking to me.

Interview 03. — Jorja

Zach —
Hello.

Jorja —
Hey.

Zach —
How are you today?

Jorja —
I'm okay, how are you?

Zach —
I'm good, I'm like slightly warmer than other days, I think last time I was like, I'm cold when i was with the last person I was talking to, but now today I'm warm cause it's not frigid outside.

Jorja —
Oh it's actually pretty! I was like I said I was running from the library cause I saw the people like in the library area.

Zach —
The lawn?

Jorja —
Yeah. I was like, Oh look, everybody enjoying the weather.

Zach —
So first question, does your experience as a black person and an African American person influenced your work as a graphic designer?

Jorja —
I'll say so. Yeah. I feel like, not that it's my duty or anything, but since I am like always the only or one of few in my classes and there's so many like issues out in the world, I feel like I have to like, what's the point of going to school for design if you're not going to create something useful, especially for issues under the umbrella of social justice. So like I feel like it's an obligation. It shouldn't be, but I feel like it is,

Zach —
It's a common feeling.

Zach —
Do you feel as though there are barriers to your success as a graphic designer due to you identifying as African American or black?

Jorja —
Mm.

Jorja —
There's always barriers, but I'll say like one, maybe the lack of understanding maybe? What's another word? Let's just say, I don't know. They're in a critique. If I have something about the current social justice issues and other people will either just be like you know  — an absence! There we go, there's a, there's this absence. Cause people go like, I don't know, "Save the bees!" And then I'm like, "The police are shooting people!"

Zach —
That really goes into the next question  — do you feel like your peers are readily able to empathize with you and your work?

Jorja —
Oh, definitely not. Definitely not. It's been let's see, I once made a project about the schools to prison pipeline and then some people were like, "Whoa, I didn't know those things." I just, and that was like the most I got so I was like,

Zach —
So you feel like in your critiquing experience in that classroom, that's all you've got from the critique? "Oh I didn't know!" Do you feel, maybe you feel like you didn't get like a thorough critique.

Jorja —
Yeah, mostly. Or like it'll be maybe I always feel like if I bring light to a certain situation then other people are almost nervous to critique because then they'll be like, "Oh, I don't want to be racist!" I'm like, I've noticed that a lot. I've only had a couple teachers actually that  — most of my professors have been having it like this, as mostly a critique [with] the students, but then they push the student critiques more than their own. So I'm like, well, "YOU tell me what's wrong, cause they definitely won't since they seem nervous.

Zach —
I remember that from my, ongoing experience, my undergrad experience; its ongoing out so it's still up in rent. Its a common thing.

Zach —
Same question, about people's ability to empathize with your work, but in terms of thinking of faculty but also thinking of staff in your environment.

Jorja —
Well, a new [staff] member that's here, he has been very helpful and then like, I've noticed it's really been a big push in inclusion and diversity.

Zach —
It says faculty or staff? Staff. Okay. So faculty chairs like teaching and then staff is, um, like student services, clerks, people who like your advisor. Yeah. So then, yeah, but then faculty would be like professors and teaching triggers.

Jorja —
The staff member here who really, he's been like really encouraging me, encouraging was wanting to create more. So, cause I honestly lost my spark ever since the there's a lot of stuff just that just happens on campus and in the world. And I'm like, you know what, whatever, at this point with them, he's been trying to go like, you know, don't feel so discouraged or whatnot. So they're trying to like create more stuff. Mostly I don't really create in my free time  — I should, but when I have new projects I try to align it in a way that would be something relating to what's ever happening now. But yeah, some faculty now, not like first year, freshman year, but especially I'll say sophomore, second semester, sophomore year. And now there've been a lot of faculty members that have been very helpful from my experience. That's what's important.

Zach —
Do you feel as though  — and you kind of answered this  — your contributions, your ideas, your work, do you feel as though they're valued properly black or white peers?

Zach —
So for instance, you were talking about school to prison pipeline and they were like, "Oh, cool idea. I didn't think about it; also, bees!" I hope that's a proper characterization of what you said, so do you feel like the work, like in that instance you felt like the work wasn't perhaps valued as properly as what you'd like, right? Is that a common thing? How common would you say that is?

Jorja —
Quite common because like I said, I feel like I find myself doing a lot of projects that try to align with any social issues. And then like, we do get a lot of projects assigned that has to have some thing with a social issue. But again, it'll be about bees or the ocean, and I'm like the oceans are important and everything, but like there's people — there's people here in America and stuff like ? They'll also do stuff like, "Over in the Philippines, blah blah," and I'm like, how about we just worry about right now, and the people down the street. So yeah, like I also feel, because I want to be better as a graphic designer. So I always feel like, well not always, butI mostly feel like I don't get the proper critique or instruction, not instruction, guidance because I don't know. There's always like that weird nervous energy. Instead I always get, so I went to, yes, I suppose. Yes. Good. So, yes.

Zach —
Do you feel proportionately represented in terms of like your identification, however you define that; do you feel like you have the support network of peers that identify similarly? Do you feel represented in your peers?

Jorja —
By like two people throughout the whole college. Yeah, kind of? Not really.

Zach —
Do you, same question, but in terms of history and references in work that that is commonly discussed in graphic design. So thinking about like graphic design history, thinking about what popular works come up in class that are referenced, curriculum that you're introduced to. Do you feel, do you see yourself in that?

Jorja —
Definitely not. Not at all. I didn't even know what graphic design was before applying really. Like I thought I wanted to do computer engineering but then I was like in IT camps too, and so like I explained to one lady what I wanted to do, she was like, "That's not engineering, that's graphic design," and I was like, Oh, I guess I'll apply for that. So yeah, it wasn't like, as I was researching I did all I see was like advertisements or typography, I don't see anything else really. Literally, until like a couple months ago I was on a Skillshare and saw a video of a black female graphic designer and I was like, Holy moly. Well like I knew there were people out there, but I just never seen anybody. So yeah, I don't especially like classes, each art history class. I haven't taken graphic design history yet, but I'm not any other art history. I'm like the only black person I know is John Basquiat, John Michel Basquiat like I have to do my own research, which is annoying in my opinion. Like if I have to keep on learning about Rembrandt and any other white dudes and I feel like you should at least find one person of color.

Zach —
Last question, Do you feel, so you mentioned staff, you feel like staff represent you and support you in your experience here, right? Thinking about the institution that you exist in — do you feel like it's advocating for you? And do you feel like it supports you? Not just thinking about specific faculty, but like the mission of this institution that you exist in. Do you feel like it supports you?

Jorja —
Yeah, I don't think so. It's just so many levels. So I'll say, let's start at the advising level. The advisor group, especially my advisor that I have is just not great at all. Like I'll go, or I used to, I used to go to them for a problem and they'll be like, "well schedule an appointment and then we'll figure it out." Even though their rooms are wide open or like I remember just last year my schedule wasn't lining up the right way. Like I knew something was off. But each time I asked them they were like, "Oh just sign up for this class or this class" or whatever. And it turns out until I was like practically banging on their door, kick down your door with the staff member. I was like something is not right. Like I was close to tears cause I'm like, I'm not going to be able to register for classes because it's not, something's not lining up.

Jorja —
And then they go like, "Oh you were on the wrong degree, audit hahaha! We'll fix that real quick." And that was a two second fix when I've been going to their office for the entire semesters. I was like, that's real cute of you, that's real cute.

Jorja —
So the advising, and then like there's certain faculty here, it's just like very tone deaf. I think a lot of people are tone deaf and then the, you know the university's like, "We value diversity and inclusion!", but what are they actually doing? Like you can have so many training videos and so many, I don't know, BLANK history months like what are you actually doing to support the students? Like I feel like I'm not valued at all.

Jorja —
So yeah, I like, I even know young kids back home where like, Oh I want to go to my college. And I'm like, no, find somewhere else. Cause I feel like I just keep on imagining if I went to HBCU or any other school how different my life would be. But you know, like no HBCU has an art program. So that's the only thing that held me back. But yeah, I just feel like there's so many things. I can't think off the top of my head at this very second, but there's so many things that the university could do that they either just won't, or it's not brought up to their attention, or I they just may not know what to do. It's like, just ask somebody. There's always somebody they can go to for information.

Zach —
Is there anything else you want to add? Any thoughts?

Jorja —
I'm tired of being the only black person in my classes. I don't know any other, and this is me especially like where I live, I, I didn't realize how big the African population here was. So back home, there's like no Africans here. I'm like, Oh! So then like each, I remember even telling a friend about and that friend is African. But like, I remember saying back home like every encounter I had, which is negative. So then I was like, and even my family, there's that, there's that weird animosity between black Americans and Africans. And so like, I remember just thinking about my family back home, just like, "don't don't! Ahh! Stay away from Africans!" Until I got here, and there's so many, like I can't not stay away because I'm the only one. I have become friends with them. So like so we'll stay there there is like a lot of, you know African students here in either, I don't know other programs, but not in graphic design. So I'm like, I literally, I feel like the only one or one of few, and it's annoying cause you know, like I want to make more friends, but I'm tired of making white friends. I really have to force myself.

Zach —
That's okay.

Jorja —
That's mostly it, I just feel lost in the sauce. It's mostly exhausting. I'm just exhausted here. Yeah.

Zach —
Anything else?

Jorja —
Okay,

Zach —
Well thank you!

Jorja —
You're welcome!